HP30 build questions

[MasterDrazhar]

I'm building up an HP30, it's a '93

First: I was wondering if anyone knew off the top of their heads if the knuckles from a '00 30 axle will fit on the '93 HP30 axle.

Next: I'm planning on putting in cromoly shafts (Going with AlloyUSA, Comments?), so should I get the shafts as if for the '00 (which I'm told the UJoint is bigger on compared to the older '93), or will I need to order the shafts as if going in a '93?  Or does it not matter, do all alloys come one size?

Also: It appears from what I've seen so far that the upper and lower ball joints for the knuckles are the same from '87 thru '06 on the wranglers, does that apply also to the xj's?  Or is this totaly off track?

Need help as this will be my first complete front end I'm doing on my own and I want to learn and do it correctly!

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[toyworx]

I ran 27spline alloy shafts in a D30 for a couple of seasons with CTM u-joints and a lockright. If I had to do it all over again, i would have gone straight to the 30 spline locker, 30spline inners, CTM joints, and the 30 spline outer kit. I've gotten into the "spend it once" mode after years of building, selling for half the $$, build again, sell it for half the $$, then finally build what I want.

Throw a little trussing in, and you could run up to 36" tires with no fear for years to come.

 

[MasterDrazhar]

Here's another question...  I've read of folks using 44 shafts in the 30 housing, is this a bitch to set up?  Would I use just the 44 inner shafts with 30 outers or would I use 44 inner and outer?  I already assume I'd need to replace the seals to fit the larger shaft.  Would I need to replace anything else like the unit hub etc?

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[beaker]

Build a dana 44 front axle, then you get disconnect hubs, 297 u-joints, stronger housing, dana 44 size shafts etc.

 

[toyworx]

WOW!!! I need to edit my first post. Should have read 30spline inners which is what the new carrier is required for. A D30 has 27spline carrier, but they make a 30spline carrier that fits in a D30 housing which allows you to run the D44 size shafts (which are 30 spline).

 

[MasterDrazhar]

WOW!!! I need to edit my first post. Should have read 30spline inners which is what the new carrier is required for. A D30 has 27spline carrier, but they make a 30spline carrier that fits in a D30 housing which allows you to run the D44 size shafts (which are 30 spline).

Other than the carrier and seals, anything else I need to change in order to run the 44 shafts?

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[DonnyG]

Jeff, I used my original knuckles from my '00.  They bolted right up.  As far as the D44 question, If you are referring to the rubicon axles, I believe that they use a 44 inner and a 30 outer stub shaft.  May be mistaken.  You will need to check with a "cheater Jeep" (Rubicon) owner.  :mad02:  unless you are planning on regearing, make sure the gears match up.  You have a 4.0 stick in your TJ, correct?  You probably have 3.73 gears.  Most likely if the XJ you got the axle from was 4.0 auto, it will have 3.55 gears.  That combination makes a very, very bad noise when 4wd is engauged.  The only problem I ran into with the swap was (bear with me, you may need to read this twice, I did)  I was running shocks for a 3" lift.  Upgraded to 4.5" front springs.  The shock mounts on the HP were 3/4" lower, thus causing my upper shock mounts to pull through the fenders.  Took a while to figure this one out.  Finally got the correct shocks and now they ride fine and I get a ton more flex.  :2cents:

 

[toyworx]

Other than the carrier and seals, anything else I need to change in order to run the 44 shafts?

Just to be clear, you won't be running shafts out of a D44. You will need to buy the Carrier, Seals, and Shafts that are all part of a "Super 30" kit available from a few different manufacturers. OR, you could just buy the Super 30 kit and be done with it. It will give you everything you need to do the swap except for the gears. The down side to the Super30 kit is that it is still using a 27 spline outer. Thats why I had mentioned buying the pieces and not the whole kit.

The ultimate setup would be this:

1 - Ring/Pinion Set
1 - Rebuild kit (bearings/shims/seals/etc)
1 - 30 Spline ARB Locker
2 - Inner Chromoly 30 spline shafts
2 - Seals for 30 spline shafts.
2 - CTM joints
1 - 30 spline HD Hub Conversion Kit (comes with 30 spline outers and converts to Warn HD manual locking hubs)

Downsides to this setup are that it is very big $$$$$$, and the 30 spline HD Hub conversion requires you to go to a 5 on 5.5" rim.

The best bang for the buck would be to just order a Super30 kit, and a new Ring/Pinion. That would give you 30spline inners and 27spline outers all in chromoly.

 

[beaker]

As an alternative, grab a pair of axles from a  late 70's F150 (dana 44 front HP, ford 9" rear. 77 is best I think.

They will be wider but you can run wheels with up to 5" back spacing to get some of that width back.

Now you'll need a set of brackets from
http://www.rubiconexpress.com/dynamic/mainpage.asp?folderid=218

Super 30 kit and hubs are a lot of coin, bigger axles might work out to the same price.

early 80's Wagoneer axles are another alternative.  Dana 44 front but low pinion.  Correct width if you get narrow track.  Jeep and chevy bolt pattern.

 

[MasterDrazhar]

Other than the carrier and seals, anything else I need to change in order to run the 44 shafts?

Just to be clear, you won't be running shafts out of a D44. You will need to buy the Carrier, Seals, and Shafts that are all part of a "Super 30" kit available from a few different manufacturers. OR, you could just buy the Super 30 kit and be done with it. It will give you everything you need to do the swap except for the gears. The down side to the Super30 kit is that it is still using a 27 spline outer. Thats why I had mentioned buying the pieces and not the whole kit.

The ultimate setup would be this:

1 - Ring/Pinion Set
1 - Rebuild kit (bearings/shims/seals/etc)
1 - 30 Spline ARB Locker
2 - Inner Chromoly 30 spline shafts
2 - Seals for 30 spline shafts.
2 - CTM joints
1 - 30 spline HD Hub Conversion Kit (comes with 30 spline outers and converts to Warn HD manual locking hubs)

Downsides to this setup are that it is very big $$$$$$, and the 30 spline HD Hub conversion requires you to go to a 5 on 5.5" rim.

The best bang for the buck would be to just order a Super30 kit, and a new Ring/Pinion. That would give you 30spline inners and 27spline outers all in chromoly.

Mike,
Thanks!  What I was planning on doing is running a Super 44 setup in that HP housing so basically what you listed above, but with the 44 chromoly axle shafts...

Donny,
  yes 4.0 Manual...  I was thinking of going 4.88 front and rear as I want to run 34's or 35's, unless someone talks me down or has a compelling reason I shouldn't go that high  :mrgreen:

Bernie,
  Already HAVE the HP30, so that's what I'm using... and I'd spend just as much with all the fabrication BS  :grinyes:

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[MasterDrazhar]

Steve,
Are the chromoly 44 shafts larger than regular 44 shafts?  I've read a couple articles where they mention running 44 shafts in the hp30 housing (Just haven't found any articles on HOW yet),  I just assumed the shaft dia is the same, just one is made in alloy...  :frown:

  So my ideas are correct, I wanted to push the weak link out as far as possible, I want to build this once, and only once  :smile:

.

 

[sean_cj7]

I want to build this once, and only once

Then build a 60, right xjmark?  I have no real input other than that.  But it sounds like you'll be doing a lot of homework so keep everyone updated.

 

[toyworx]

For clarification.

Stock Dana30 shafts are 27 spline inner and outer.

Stock Dana44 shafts are 30 spline inner, some 30 spline outer, some 27 spline outer.

A Super 44 shaft is 33 spline and bigger than a standard 44 shaft. There are 30spline AND 33spline Chromoly shafts available for D44's.

A Super 30 shaft is 30 spline (same size as standard Dana44). There are 30spline and 27spline Chromoly shafts available for D30's.

NONE of what you will be ordering is Dana 44 stuff.  All of it is Dana 30 Parts, but upgraded.

What I listed earlier is the strongest setup available for a Dana30. As Steve  pointed out, in theory it makes the Ring/Pinion the weakest part of the package.

Sean makes a good point. Some would argue that you are putting about $3000 into a Dana30, and for not much more $$, you could build something with WAAAYYYYY more beaf.

 

[sean_cj7]

In all honesty, if your spending that much money on a D30 then seriously look into atleast a 44.  The brackets aren't a really big deal.  I built my own 44 and this is my cost list, axle housing - free, axle tube cut down - free (did it myself), detroit - 500 +/- a few bucks, a ring and pinion set with setup kit - 250 I think, the gear install - free (did it myself), high strength moser inner shafts - 300, outers (stub shaft, hub and brakes) - free (got a whole donor truck and used only those parts), hy-steer arms - 230, custom steering - 260, premiem warn hub kit 100.  And the u-joints and ball joints - I thik 200.  I have leafs but still had to fab up some brackets and do some welding but that pretty much sums it up.  The total was well under $2000 and I've been running 36's for 3 years and have no problems.  I know I got alot of stuff free but I did collect the stuff over a period of about a year.  Heck alot of my cost was steering and replaceable hardware.  So my thought is price out everything on all your options.

 

[xjmark]

I want to build this once, and only once

Then build a 60, right xjmark?   I have no real input other than that.  But it sounds like you'll be doing a lot of homework so keep everyone updated.

I went through all this already, and my wallet got skinny twice instead of once.
I've seen you wheel a couple of times, and I think the D30 would only become a costly stepping stone to higher levels.

I wheeled my rig for a couple of years with a stock hp30, and chrysler 8 1/4 rear. 3.55 gears, and a factory posi unit.
They did really well, and I learned a lot on 31's, and then 33's on those axles. I had a lot of fun with them for basically free.

Then I decided to upgrade from there thinking I'm going hardcore.    I built a D44 rear, with a detroit locker, all new brakes, seals, and bearings. The front HP30 was built with an ARB, and all new brakes, seals, unit hubs, bearings, etc. Both axles had new 4.88 gears. Not cheap once it was all added up with time and labor.

A 44 up front would be a lot better than a 30, but it's more costly to build. That was the route I was going to go to put 36"Q's on the rig, but then something happened......I went to the 2005 DWE show.  :tongue: 44's were snapping like swizzle sticks on most of the rigs.

That day I decided to not waste anymore money on gradual upgrades. I did a lot of homework, and found the 78-79 Ford HP60, and mid 80's 14bolt to be the best bang for the buck. The front does cost more than the 44 to build, but it's most likely going to last the life of your wheeling rig, and the next few that they get bolted into. The 14 bolt is actually a dirt cheap axle to build for what the end result is.

I don't want to steer you away from your plans, but be honest with yourself to where you see the rig eventually ending up.
Four years ago, I didn't expect it to be built the way it is, but the bug bites hard. Spend your money once even if it means saving up and wheeling the rig the way it is for one more season. :wink:




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[NomadJeep]

not sure I even follow this.  :rotflmao:

are you calling 30 spline shafts 44's?  Because they may equal 44 in strength, but they are still Dana 30 shafts. (as Toy said)

What configuration are you planning on running?  Even if you go to a 30 spline shaft, the weak link in a Dana 30 will be the contact area for the ring and pinion.  So to be honest, I am not a big fan of beefing up the Dana 30 beyond what the housing and R&P can handle.

Weak link progression:  To prevent the R&P from failing, the u-joint should blow, if the U-joint is to strong, the shaft ears should go.  If they are too strong, then the R&P will taco.

Hubs are a great fix being they get rid of all those and put the weak link at the hub. (as steve said :rotflmao

A chrome alloy straight up 27 spline TJ shaft should never give you any problems if you are keeping it within reason.  It is run every day with little trouble.  The 30 spline is a nice option, which will give you more strength, but weigh all the costs first.  In the end you may be able to just by a Rubi 44 or Hubs.

It all comes down to how you think you will wheel, how big a tire, and how you will treat the skinny pedal.

The Dana 30 is a good axle, and can be built up.  It is even used in Jeep Speed racing and by most Jeeps you see every day wheeling.  However if you think you will pass that, then go larger. 

If you are going to be buying a new carrier, (aka) locker, R&P, and shafts get the alloy 30 or at least a 27 in alloy.  Just remember, there is also a ton of other stuff that needs attention to.  SYE, drive shafts, rear axle, protection, tires, lift and the list goes on. 

The one thing to remember, if you are doing gears, don't bother unless you are putting in a locker.  Being you will by the labor twice.

 

[xjmark]

Just read an interesting thread on pirate. Touches on this subject a lot.
Post-build regrets

 

[toyworx]

Good thread there Mark. Funny how there is a LOT of "wasted money on a xxx and should have just built a 60". I think its because most of those guys ended up going to 36"+ tires.

As others have pointed out. I think it is important to focus on the end goal. As is the case with my XJ. End goal was to take the kids wheeling, and have a rig that I could trail lead the stocker/mild runs with. So getting your D30/D44 combo was perfect as the truck will never see anything bigger than a 35" tire (actually will probably go with 34 x 10.5 TSL's), and that combo can be made to put up with 35's all day long, as I proved to myself with the old setup in my CJ.

I think if the end goal is no bigger than 35's, then a D30/D44 combo is perfect as you can match strength with ground clearence by throwing in some chromoly shafts even if they are 27spline chromoly.

Now with my CJ project, the end goal is totally different, which is why i pitched the D30, skipped a 44 and went straight to big beef. D60/D70 combo should do the trick.

 

[MasterDrazhar]

Definately not going with larger than 35's (*At least not on this rig*)  or not untill it's lost all it's original body work and is nothing more than a buggy...    :rotflmao:

I also do not plan on any DWE type shows or runs with it.  I just want to build as bullet-proof front and rear as possible in as a "close to stock" footprint as I can, I.E. no full width axles, etc...  I also want to pretty much "bolt on" and go.

so here's what I'm thinking:

ARB 30 spline locker W/ 4.88's
Chromoly 44 Axle shaft inner
Warn lockout kit (*I believe this comes with new chromoly outers, correct?*)

.

 

[NomadJeep]

little edit

ARB 30 spline locker W/ 4.88's  Very Good
Chromoly Dana 30 30 SPLINE Axle shaft inner
Warn lockout kit (*I believe this comes with new chromoly outers, correct?*)  Good and Yes, they come with outers.

Have Steve get you some prices on the Yukon Alloy, being doing great for him and I, and the price was much better.